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	<title>Comments on: In Praise of Civil Discourse</title>
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	<description>Scribblings on life &#38; art in Washington, DC by photographer Susana Raab</description>
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		<title>By: Susana Raab</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-468</link>
		<dc:creator>Susana Raab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-468</guid>
		<description>Hi Nacho - Thank you for chiming in.  And thank you for working to express yourself and your views.  We should all take advantage of our freedom to express ourselves and our beliefs, and thus take a stand for what we believe in.  I feel that one problem with America, and probably many other countries, is we have been too sated by our relative prosperity to care about taking a stand on anything.  Cable tv and air-conditioning have done a lot in terms of keeping us indoors and relatively numb to the world at large.  As George Washington said when leaving office, &quot;Cultivate harmony and peace.&quot; But we can only do that by not rolling over and playing dead, and by treating people with respect.  It&#039;s difficult at times, no doubt, but it&#039;s a goal for which to strive.  When the runner stumbles, pick yourself up, and regain the course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nacho &#8211; Thank you for chiming in.  And thank you for working to express yourself and your views.  We should all take advantage of our freedom to express ourselves and our beliefs, and thus take a stand for what we believe in.  I feel that one problem with America, and probably many other countries, is we have been too sated by our relative prosperity to care about taking a stand on anything.  Cable tv and air-conditioning have done a lot in terms of keeping us indoors and relatively numb to the world at large.  As George Washington said when leaving office, &#8220;Cultivate harmony and peace.&#8221; But we can only do that by not rolling over and playing dead, and by treating people with respect.  It&#8217;s difficult at times, no doubt, but it&#8217;s a goal for which to strive.  When the runner stumbles, pick yourself up, and regain the course.</p>
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		<title>By: Nacho</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-466</link>
		<dc:creator>Nacho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-466</guid>
		<description>Thanks Susana for this nicely penned commentary.  I find it very telling that anonymouse gets so many things confused, decides to be insulting, and then does not even dare sign his/her name. Unfortunately that post did say much about his lack of cleverness, anger, and unmindful disposition at the moment.

I think what Ms. Greenberg did was not right at all. She confused genres, and beyond that, she chose to make a political statement where none had been requested. I understand arguments for artistic license, but here she is not the sole author, nor is this her project. She was,  a contributor to the piece, but not the maker of the argument. She took advantage of the moment and did not think about the reasonable consequences of her actions, and the suffering they could and would bring, for others. Ultimately, I think she went as a performance artist instead of completing the journalistic work for which she was contracted. Unfortunately, given the circumstances, she did not meet the journalistic standard, nor the political goals, nor earned good artistic merit. A shame that her ability was so misdirected.

I agree with you also on the call to be mindful of how our actions promote our goals. As a progressive person, I think that Ms. Greenberg&#039;s actions are very counterproductive (and I&#039;m no stranger to protests, performances, and/or actions of various kinds). She could have done the images outside of this context, added a better performative twist, etc. and perhaps achieved her political goals in better fashion.

Thanks for posting about it so wisely. And anonymouse, please join a civil conversation that respects difference and good engagement with each other. No need to fear meeting others in that &quot;narrow ridge&quot; (Buber) of humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Susana for this nicely penned commentary.  I find it very telling that anonymouse gets so many things confused, decides to be insulting, and then does not even dare sign his/her name. Unfortunately that post did say much about his lack of cleverness, anger, and unmindful disposition at the moment.</p>
<p>I think what Ms. Greenberg did was not right at all. She confused genres, and beyond that, she chose to make a political statement where none had been requested. I understand arguments for artistic license, but here she is not the sole author, nor is this her project. She was,  a contributor to the piece, but not the maker of the argument. She took advantage of the moment and did not think about the reasonable consequences of her actions, and the suffering they could and would bring, for others. Ultimately, I think she went as a performance artist instead of completing the journalistic work for which she was contracted. Unfortunately, given the circumstances, she did not meet the journalistic standard, nor the political goals, nor earned good artistic merit. A shame that her ability was so misdirected.</p>
<p>I agree with you also on the call to be mindful of how our actions promote our goals. As a progressive person, I think that Ms. Greenberg&#8217;s actions are very counterproductive (and I&#8217;m no stranger to protests, performances, and/or actions of various kinds). She could have done the images outside of this context, added a better performative twist, etc. and perhaps achieved her political goals in better fashion.</p>
<p>Thanks for posting about it so wisely. And anonymouse, please join a civil conversation that respects difference and good engagement with each other. No need to fear meeting others in that &#8220;narrow ridge&#8221; (Buber) of humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Susana Raab</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-465</link>
		<dc:creator>Susana Raab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-465</guid>
		<description>chris, i don&#039;t think i was punishing anonymouse - just disagreeing with him/her. it&#039;s obvious from the endless comments on more popular blogs than my humble offering that the photographic community is very much in disagreement.  as for what i&#039;ve given back, if you must know, i tithe 10% of my income to charity and volunteer my services to a few favorite worthy causes - i&#039;m sorry i still feel that the modality employed by ms. greenberg is more akin to schoolyard taunts than cogent arguments - if you feel differently, great.  re the klan analogy, my only comparison with ms. greenberg to the klan is that some people consider their activities completely unsavory, but they have the right to do that under our constitution (public displays they have the right, i mean), not that jill would persecute a whole sector of people. i think we have all made up our minds on this, and i was not attempting to sway anyone&#039;s opinions as much as vent about what i do feel is the dirtying of discourse. Mr. and Mrs. Smith included. I do believe I said that I appreciate her humanitarian efforts.  I doubt that Angelina is losing any sleep over my comments, nor should she.  THOSE comments did not come from a malicious place. I did not say she was an evil-doer.  Rather I asked if anyone found it ironic? You, obviously, do not. So thanks for answering my question. I don&#039;t think the world is black and white at all, much to the contrary. I am sorry if this is unclear from my post and that you find more vitriol in it then was intended. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>chris, i don&#8217;t think i was punishing anonymouse &#8211; just disagreeing with him/her. it&#8217;s obvious from the endless comments on more popular blogs than my humble offering that the photographic community is very much in disagreement.  as for what i&#8217;ve given back, if you must know, i tithe 10% of my income to charity and volunteer my services to a few favorite worthy causes &#8211; i&#8217;m sorry i still feel that the modality employed by ms. greenberg is more akin to schoolyard taunts than cogent arguments &#8211; if you feel differently, great.  re the klan analogy, my only comparison with ms. greenberg to the klan is that some people consider their activities completely unsavory, but they have the right to do that under our constitution (public displays they have the right, i mean), not that jill would persecute a whole sector of people. i think we have all made up our minds on this, and i was not attempting to sway anyone&#8217;s opinions as much as vent about what i do feel is the dirtying of discourse. Mr. and Mrs. Smith included. I do believe I said that I appreciate her humanitarian efforts.  I doubt that Angelina is losing any sleep over my comments, nor should she.  THOSE comments did not come from a malicious place. I did not say she was an evil-doer.  Rather I asked if anyone found it ironic? You, obviously, do not. So thanks for answering my question. I don&#8217;t think the world is black and white at all, much to the contrary. I am sorry if this is unclear from my post and that you find more vitriol in it then was intended.</p>
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		<title>By: chris buck</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-463</link>
		<dc:creator>chris buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 03:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-463</guid>
		<description>thanks anonymous - if someone wants to write anonymous they shouldn&#039;t be punished for it. And i know this is ridiculous but i can&#039;t believe you are calling out angelena jolie about what movies she makes - we should be grateful to someone with money giving so much back, how much money and time have you spent this year giving back? And your &quot;art&quot; doesn&#039;t count. Comparing what Jill did to the Klu Klux Klan . . . come on, is everything really that black and white? 
Lets all hope to God that crazy woman and out of touch old kook don&#039;t make it in the white house. If Jill thought she was helping then more power to her - please register everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks anonymous &#8211; if someone wants to write anonymous they shouldn&#8217;t be punished for it. And i know this is ridiculous but i can&#8217;t believe you are calling out angelena jolie about what movies she makes &#8211; we should be grateful to someone with money giving so much back, how much money and time have you spent this year giving back? And your &#8220;art&#8221; doesn&#8217;t count. Comparing what Jill did to the Klu Klux Klan . . . come on, is everything really that black and white?<br />
Lets all hope to God that crazy woman and out of touch old kook don&#8217;t make it in the white house. If Jill thought she was helping then more power to her &#8211; please register everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-462</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-462</guid>
		<description>Frankly, the fact that you are talking about Hockey Mom&#039;s instead of true american Soccer Moms, Football Moms, and Basketball Moms is more proof that the Great White Menace to your north is continuing with their unabated, stealthy takeover of America. 

Any day now you&#039;ll wake up to find yourself mired down with the evils of universal health care, the metric system, and official bilingualism. 

Don&#039;t beleive me? Our latest inroad was getting colours other than that drab green on your paper money. Resistance is futile, you WILL be assimilated!

Oh the horror..... ;)


And yeah, what she did was both totally legal and incredibly juvenile and unethical. Using someone elses dime to gain access and then doing such a hatchet job is really, really low.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, the fact that you are talking about Hockey Mom&#8217;s instead of true american Soccer Moms, Football Moms, and Basketball Moms is more proof that the Great White Menace to your north is continuing with their unabated, stealthy takeover of America. </p>
<p>Any day now you&#8217;ll wake up to find yourself mired down with the evils of universal health care, the metric system, and official bilingualism. </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t beleive me? Our latest inroad was getting colours other than that drab green on your paper money. Resistance is futile, you WILL be assimilated!</p>
<p>Oh the horror&#8230;.. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And yeah, what she did was both totally legal and incredibly juvenile and unethical. Using someone elses dime to gain access and then doing such a hatchet job is really, really low.</p>
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		<title>By: Susana Raab</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-461</link>
		<dc:creator>Susana Raab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-461</guid>
		<description>thanks bioephemera.   anonymouse pretty much plays into my whole tenet anyway. it&#039;s about civil discourse.  I mean since I&#039;m just a half-wit, I don&#039;t think the arguments i&#039;ve laid out here should be so difficult to understand.  and since anonymouse is so smart i don&#039;t understand why he/she fails to recognize that throwing insults around while you are arguing a topic is precisely the kind of behavior i am against.  i thought about deleting it, just b/c it is anonymous - but then i thought, &quot;who cares?&quot; i&#039;ve moved on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks bioephemera.   anonymouse pretty much plays into my whole tenet anyway. it&#8217;s about civil discourse.  I mean since I&#8217;m just a half-wit, I don&#8217;t think the arguments i&#8217;ve laid out here should be so difficult to understand.  and since anonymouse is so smart i don&#8217;t understand why he/she fails to recognize that throwing insults around while you are arguing a topic is precisely the kind of behavior i am against.  i thought about deleting it, just b/c it is anonymous &#8211; but then i thought, &#8220;who cares?&#8221; i&#8217;ve moved on.</p>
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		<title>By: bioephemera</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-460</link>
		<dc:creator>bioephemera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-460</guid>
		<description>Susana, just stumbled across your response to this, after writing one of my own at my blog. I&#039;m glad to see a practicing photographer had many of the same feelings I did. 

I think the response of people like anonymouse (commenting above) is so unfortunate: they honestly think that because McCain is a bad guy, it excuses any sort of behavior - and if you don&#039;t agree with this, you must be greedy, stupid, or weak. It&#039;s a fascinatingly simple worldview, isn&#039;t it? But in the end, I don&#039;t usually use Karl Rove&#039;s behavior as a model for my own, because I think it&#039;s kind of important that we&#039;re better than that. Or at least that we try to be better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Susana, just stumbled across your response to this, after writing one of my own at my blog. I&#8217;m glad to see a practicing photographer had many of the same feelings I did. </p>
<p>I think the response of people like anonymouse (commenting above) is so unfortunate: they honestly think that because McCain is a bad guy, it excuses any sort of behavior &#8211; and if you don&#8217;t agree with this, you must be greedy, stupid, or weak. It&#8217;s a fascinatingly simple worldview, isn&#8217;t it? But in the end, I don&#8217;t usually use Karl Rove&#8217;s behavior as a model for my own, because I think it&#8217;s kind of important that we&#8217;re better than that. Or at least that we try to be better.</p>
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		<title>By: Susana Raab</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-459</link>
		<dc:creator>Susana Raab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-459</guid>
		<description>sorry, anonymouse - but i completely disagree with you. if you feel so strongly why don&#039;t you identify yourself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry, anonymouse &#8211; but i completely disagree with you. if you feel so strongly why don&#8217;t you identify yourself?</p>
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		<title>By: anonymouse</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-458</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-458</guid>
		<description>let&#039;s see.

1.  it&#039;s not that she&#039;s not a &quot;journalist per se&quot;, it&#039;s that she&#039;s not a journalist.  she&#039;s an artist who is hired specifically to create her artistic style.  you clearly almost understood this, but if you really understood it your whole point would be moot.  which it is.
EPIC FAIL
2. this risible argument, that any strong statement A made by a democrat leads to B strong republican response, so let&#039;s make sure all democrats are timorous and quiescent is a joke.  karl rove does not care if you are nice or naughty.  he will hit you over and over and over, no matter how many times you try to be civil.  
FAIL
3. you mention the new yorker and the atlantic.  funny story:  jeffrey goldberg, the author of the piece greenberg illustrated, wrote several articles for the new yorker using sources who were at the time already known prevaricators.  these sources inevitably told him that sadaam had WMD&#039;s and so on.  goldberg, knowing these sources were lousy, used them nonetheless.  his articles in the new yorker were used by many in power to justify going to war (including dick cheney).  goldberg&#039;s sources were proved even further to be liars after the first phase of the war ended--goldberg never apologized.  in fact, he got rewarded with a plum job at the atlantic, one that came with a pony for his daughter (no, really, it did).  his actions were evil and unethical, but no one cared.
FAIL WITH A SIDE OF FAIL
4.not germane.
F is for FAIL
5.really, none of this tells you anything about mccain?  for instance, that he&#039;s REALLY old.  not important? that he cheated on his first wife after her terrible accident?  doesn&#039;t matter?  that he is on record as calling his current wife a cunt in front of reporters?  did you already know that?  does it not give you pause?  have you not maybe learned something? 

it may tell you a bunch of things about greenberg, but one of them clearly is that she puts her political beliefs before her mercenary ones.  she will lose jobs because of this.  in a better world, that would be a badge of honor.  in this (and the strobist) world, you guys just line up to toady to power so that you can grab a paycheck.

you aren&#039;t a clever enough person to take on such a weighty subject.  you didn&#039;t do your research, you just spouted off.  that david hobby of strobist thinks you are smart...that doesn&#039;t tell me much about you, but it tells me a lot about him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>let&#8217;s see.</p>
<p>1.  it&#8217;s not that she&#8217;s not a &#8220;journalist per se&#8221;, it&#8217;s that she&#8217;s not a journalist.  she&#8217;s an artist who is hired specifically to create her artistic style.  you clearly almost understood this, but if you really understood it your whole point would be moot.  which it is.<br />
EPIC FAIL<br />
2. this risible argument, that any strong statement A made by a democrat leads to B strong republican response, so let&#8217;s make sure all democrats are timorous and quiescent is a joke.  karl rove does not care if you are nice or naughty.  he will hit you over and over and over, no matter how many times you try to be civil.<br />
FAIL<br />
3. you mention the new yorker and the atlantic.  funny story:  jeffrey goldberg, the author of the piece greenberg illustrated, wrote several articles for the new yorker using sources who were at the time already known prevaricators.  these sources inevitably told him that sadaam had WMD&#8217;s and so on.  goldberg, knowing these sources were lousy, used them nonetheless.  his articles in the new yorker were used by many in power to justify going to war (including dick cheney).  goldberg&#8217;s sources were proved even further to be liars after the first phase of the war ended&#8211;goldberg never apologized.  in fact, he got rewarded with a plum job at the atlantic, one that came with a pony for his daughter (no, really, it did).  his actions were evil and unethical, but no one cared.<br />
FAIL WITH A SIDE OF FAIL<br />
4.not germane.<br />
F is for FAIL<br />
5.really, none of this tells you anything about mccain?  for instance, that he&#8217;s REALLY old.  not important? that he cheated on his first wife after her terrible accident?  doesn&#8217;t matter?  that he is on record as calling his current wife a cunt in front of reporters?  did you already know that?  does it not give you pause?  have you not maybe learned something? </p>
<p>it may tell you a bunch of things about greenberg, but one of them clearly is that she puts her political beliefs before her mercenary ones.  she will lose jobs because of this.  in a better world, that would be a badge of honor.  in this (and the strobist) world, you guys just line up to toady to power so that you can grab a paycheck.</p>
<p>you aren&#8217;t a clever enough person to take on such a weighty subject.  you didn&#8217;t do your research, you just spouted off.  that david hobby of strobist thinks you are smart&#8230;that doesn&#8217;t tell me much about you, but it tells me a lot about him.</p>
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		<title>By: Susana Raab</title>
		<link>http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/in-praise-of-civil-discourse/#comment-457</link>
		<dc:creator>Susana Raab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://susanaraab.wordpress.com/?p=492#comment-457</guid>
		<description>oh james, and i meant to write william f buckley&#039;s the national review instead of the weekly standard - i am messing up my liberal and conservative magazines.  whoops!  see you can&#039;t even trust Look Underfoot! ; )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh james, and i meant to write william f buckley&#8217;s the national review instead of the weekly standard &#8211; i am messing up my liberal and conservative magazines.  whoops!  see you can&#8217;t even trust Look Underfoot! ; )</p>
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